Rise of the Rebellion
Administration => General => Topic started by: Trax on January 24, 2012, 03:15:28 PM
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Wasn't sure where to put this so feel free to move it.
I have a question regarding brawling parry vs melee parry. When you specialize with melee parry, it's with a weapon used to parry any melee or brawling attack. But when you specialize with brawling parry, you specialize on parrying that type of attack.
To me that would be like saying if you're good with a knife, you're good with a knife no matter how your opponent comes at you, but if you're a good mixed martial artist, you're only good at defending if you're attacker is attacking you using mixed martial arts. Taking a step into the real world, many martial arts out there teach you how to effectively disarm your attacker, or safely block the attack so I guess this where I'm losing my understanding of this particular difference in the rules.
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Or you could look at melee parry as parrying a brawling or weapon attack, regardless if you have a weapon, as you described the mixed-martial arts.
Melee and brawling are similar, but someone trained in melee parry (bare hand and/or weaponed attacks) would still be good against brawling attacks, but not necessarily the opposite.
Maybe if attacked by a weapon, you must use melee parry, but if it is bare handed, you can choose between melee/brawling (unless you are using a weapon, then melee is required)
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The defensive specializations are all based on the type of attack to be avoided. The melee parry specialization is the "type of weapon used" as in the type of weapon used against you.
Dodge: Energy Weapons means you're good at dodging blaster bolts. Brawling Parry: Martial Arts means you're good at blocking martial arts moves and strikes. Melee Parry: Vibroblade means you're good at blocking Vibroblade attacks, regardless of the type of weapon that is in your hand.
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That is different than I had understood it. That may have changed how Jex allocated CP's in the past. It makes sense, but I am pretty sure that my understanding at the time was that the skill was based on Jex using his vibro-blade to parry.
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Hmmm.
I suppose we can rejigger some CP expenditures. Think about it, and pitch me your reasoning.
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Do you still have the CP expenditures (via email) we did?
I might be able to recreate some of it from my shoddy notes ...
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I should be able to, but it's easy enough to count backwards by refunding pips. You started with 1D worth of specialization. Everything else would have been from CP expenditures.
Just a note - IF we do go through this, the new CP's will not be available to earn Force skills. You probably weren't thinking that, but I wanted to be sure. Once you're done the rejigger, I'll want Jex at approximately where he is now as far as available CP's go, given some error for differing expenditures.
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Would the specialization skill not start with the underlying base skill at the time? Not necessarily 1D?
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Yes. I meant that the specialization would be the base attribute +1D. If your Dex was 3D, and Melee Parry:Vibroblades was 4D, then count CP expenditures from wherever you are to 4D and that's how many CP you sank into it.
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How many "D" in a skill does someone need to teach another person? I actually have 5D in Lightsaber combat.
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3 more than the person you are training.
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Dang, that's the funny thing. From what I understand, Lightsaber combat can be bought as a DEX skill and a Force skill. I have the DEX skill, which means I was probably taught how to turn the damn thing on and off without lopping myself into kibble. :P
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They are really two separate skills. One (DEX based) is the purely physical act of using it, the other (Force Power) is integrating it with you Force abilities.
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Yeah, that's what I thought it was. After seeing the lightsaber description and the potential for self-injury (and consequences), Niil would wait until he had the Force power as well.
Of course without a functioning lightsaber, it's all academic . . . :P
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Take a fluorescent light tube, fill it with gasoline, apply ignition source. Problem solved ... ;)
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Melee Combat
Time Taken: One round.
Specializations: Specific type of melee weapon ?
swords, knives, axes, vibroblades, vibro-axes.
Melee combat is the "melee combat" skill used for
all hand-to-hand weapons (except lightsabers, which
is covered under the lightsaber skill). Melee weapons
include vibro-axes, force pikes, gaderffii sticks, clubs,
bayonets and even impromptu weapons like chairs
and blaster butts.
Melee Parry
Time Taken: One round.
Specializations: Type of melee weapon used ?lightsabers, knives, clubs, axes, vibroblades.
Melee parry is the "reaction skill" used if a character
has a melee weapon and is attacked by someone with
a melee combat, brawling or lightsaber attack. (Melee
parry can't be used to parry blaster attacks ? that's
dodge.)
Apparently, as by the rules, the melee parry refers to the weapon used by the character using melee parry not the weapon attacking them.
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Whose problem? Mine or yours? :P
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So, that leaves a discrepancy. If I'm boxing someone who is unarmed, why can't they brawling parry my attacks with their martial arts moves? If I specialize in Brawling Parry: Martial Arts, how come I can't use those still to parry wrestling moves?
And from the other side of the coin, if I can specialize in a given weapon to melee parry with, and I can always use that weapon to melee parry, why would I bother with regular parry? Jex is never without a vibrosword, and he can readily get one if he ever looses his, so he effectively has a half-cost defensive skill for melee weapons.
The same thing is kind of bothering me about specializations in dodge. Blasters are far and away the most numerous weapons you will ever see, so taking a specialization in Dodge:Energy weapons is like saying all pips in dodge are half price.
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I'm considering a house rule disallowing all defensive specializations. That seems to me to be the only way to keep the base skill relevant, while resolving the inconsistencies.
Or, we could go the route of Lightsaber, and make the attack skill also include a defensive component.
I'm not sure how to deal with this, but I think I need to do something to keep things making sense.
Any thoughts?
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I think maybe we are over thinking all this. If there is one conclusion I have after rereading all the write ups, is that despite our high die values, we still seem to be dragging at least 1 or 2 of us out of every scrape, and usually that is after emergency med-pac repairs. Each additional mook you add to the opposition essentially suppresses 1D of skill per round, if only temporarily.
Unless there is something I am missing, I don't think things have been too unbalanced, at least from our point of view.
You need to decide what flavour you want for the game, a bit more realism or a more heroic touch.
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So, that leaves a discrepancy. If I'm boxing someone who is unarmed, why can't they brawling parry my attacks with their martial arts moves? If I specialize in Brawling Parry: Martial Arts, how come I can't use those still to parry wrestling moves?
Which is the basis for me posting the original question. At least it's nice to know we're all confused by it now :)
The same thing is kind of bothering me about specializations in dodge. Blasters are far and away the most numerous weapons you will ever see, so taking a specialization in Dodge:Energy weapons is like saying all pips in dodge are half price.
True, but there's a better variation (I think) of things to dodge, grenades, slug throwers, dart guns etc. Although one could make the argument that the energy weapon specialization could/should be broken down into hand held weapons and larger mounted ones. Or something along those lines.
I'm considering a house rule disallowing all defensive specializations. That seems to me to be the only way to keep the base skill relevant, while resolving the inconsistencies.
Or, we could go the route of Lightsaber, and make the attack skill also include a defensive component.
I'm not sure how to deal with this, but I think I need to do something to keep things making sense.
Any thoughts?
I'm not keen on the idea of making the attack skill include a defensive component because in a way wouldn't the character be getting a 2 for 1 bonus?
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So, that leaves a discrepancy. If I'm boxing someone who is unarmed, why can't they brawling parry my attacks with their martial arts moves? If I specialize in Brawling Parry: Martial Arts, how come I can't use those still to parry wrestling moves?
As far as I can see in the rules you can use your specializations, which then begs the question, what purpose do specializations have with the Brawling skills. Unless there is a mechanism to limit the application of specializations in specific circumstances, there is no difference between the base skill and the specialization.
Brawling parry. If someone attacks your character
(either with a brawling attack or when wielding a melee
weapon) and your character's unarmed, you use brawl-
ing parry to get out of the way or block the attack. (If
your character doesn't have brawling parry, you use
Dexterity.) If your character is using brawling parry in
defending against someone who is attacking with a
weapon or sharp natural tools, the attacker gets a +10
bonus modifier to his attack roll.
The rules also allow for Brawling Parry against Melee weapons. It is defined as avoiding or blocking an attack.
As far a Melee Skills, there is more of a built in limitation to the specializations in that you are specializing in different weapons, which have different characteristics defined (the brawling specializations do not have any variation of defined characteristics).
Just to mention, Jex did do one entire adventure without his vibroblade, it did not fit into the Imperial Officer disguise when we raided the hospital.
If we can come up with a simple mechanism to limit the scope of the specialization then we don't need to change the characters.
Personally I think this whole issue can be dealt with at the GM level with adventure planning, with the types of challenges we face, but at the same time I would not expect Craig to have to spend considerably more time prepping if there is a simpler approach.
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OK.
Melee and brawling defensive specializations vary with the weapon you use to defend against the attack (whatever the attack is). Ranged defensive specializations vary according the weapon used to make the attack.
Someone could take a brawling parry: martial arts, and then use that specialization to defend against any brawling attack (or melee attack for that matter). Someone could take melee parry: vibroblade, and any time they have a vibroblade in their hand, they could use their specialization to defend against any melee or brawling attack, regardless of the weapon they are defending against.
Ranged dodges will depend on the weapon used to make the attack only.
That way all close-quarters defensive skills are consistent.
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Sounds like the easiest fix to me.
And leads me to my next (much easier) question. What's the cost to gain a specialization? The book lumps regular skills and specializations together in it's description here;
Learning New Skills
Skills and Specializations. Characters can learn a new skill or specialization by paying enough Character Points to advance it one pip above the attribute. There is no training time if the character "used the skill" in the last adventure (i.e., used the attribute when doing something that would be covered by the skill). Otherwise, use the normal rules for training time.
The reason I ask is the three areas I'd like to pick up specializations in, the base skill is above the attribute so I'm just looking for clarification. Also, when you learn a specialization, you gain +1D above the base skill off the hop and then it goes up by pips like normal correct?
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I believe you only get the 1D "bonus" for the specialization at character creation. Thereafter, you can take a new specialization simply by buying a pip.
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Okay. Does first specialization pip cost the number of cp in front of the D or half like it costs to improve them?
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half, for a specialization
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Can a whip be used to parry a melee or brawling attack? My first thought is no but wanted to ask.
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I'm going to say no, there's no defensive component to a whip.