Karvis
Administration => House Rules => Topic started by: Jex on January 22, 2012, 10:52:48 PM
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[OOC - I not sure that anyone would even know that Jex is sensitive, he most likely does not even realize it himself. I suspect that until someone with real skill 'discovers' him, nothing will change for Jex, unless he starts succumbing to the dark side and then one day he will just flip out, or start acting like Trax ...
Craig, by the RAW, the only way to gain Force Powers and skills is to be trained, research very specific knowledge repositories, or certain cultural practices. Is there anything that shows how using the Force originated ... there had to be a first practitioner (or multiple independent first practitioners)]
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What is the RAW?
Jex would be aware of flashes of intuition he can't explain, feelings and sensations beyond the normal, things he wants seemingly floating of their own accord towards him and the like. It's not something he can control. As he came into his sensitivity late in life, this would mark a transition for him. Without training, it's nothing he can do anything with, per se, but he would be aware of something happening to him, and feel a sense of untapped potential. Unusual feelings, visions, sensations, things levitating, flashes of intuition would have started happening.
It is not that you must have a teacher to learn force skills. Introspection can open up those skills as well.
Here's some rules of thumb:
Force Skills
Characters must be Force-sensitive to learn Force skills.
When characters recieve their first die in a Force skill (control, sense, or alter), they recieve one Force power.
Force Skill. Character Point Cost: Number before the "D." Double character point cost without a teacher. Training Time: One day per Character Point spent if the character has a teacher. Two days per Character Point without a teacher. Training time may be reduced by one day for each additional Character Point spent (minimum of one day).
Force Powers. A Jedi may be taught a new power each time a Force skill is improved one pip. The new power is chosen by the teacher and must use the improved skill (for instance, a Jedi improving control could not learn a power based solely on alter).
A character may be taught a Force power without improving a Force skill, but the character must spend five Character Points.
A power that uses two Force skills counts as two powers when being taught powers.
A Jedi character cannot use a power that has not been learned.
The Lure of the Dark Side. When a character with Dark Side Points uses a Force skill, her skill roll gets a bonus of 1D per Dark Side Point.
A Jedi may refuse this bonus, but the difficulties of all Force powers should be increased by at least one difficulty level to reflect the intense concentration needed to avoid the dark side's temptations.
A character who has gone over to the dark side no longer recieves this bonus.
Intuitive Powers. It is well-known that some beings can push themselves to feats of great strength or endurance. Likewise, Jedi characters, when faced with an incredible challenge, may exhibit powers they had not previously learned.
At the gamemaster's discretion only, characters may be "granted" powers in exceptional circumstances. This reflects the Force's mystic and often unpredictable nature.
Gamemasters may grant the power for "free," require the Jedi to spend a number of Character Points or Force Points to learn the power, or set other conditions. Gamemasters may grant a Jedi a power on a one-time basis to indicate the importance of a particular task, or to "reward" characters who have performed exceptionally well by allowing them to "subconsciously" learn a new power.
The first force-users explored their abilities through introspection and meditation, gradually learning the lore they could teach to others. Jex could do the same thing, with the usual cp costs and time requirements for self-taught skills.
THE BASICS
CONTROL
This skill is largely a character's ability to feel the Force in himself, and use it to augment form and function. This is usually the first Force skill taught to a student of the Force, and sets the ground work for further training in its other aspects.
SENSE
This skill is a characters ability to feel and recognize the Force outside himself. This is usually the next skill taught to a student as it requires a deeper understanding of the Force and its nature. This skill governs many abilities with emotional or perception related abilities.
ALTER
This is usually the final area of learning taught to a student of the Force. It is also considered the most difficult of the three basic skills as it teaches a student to modify, and redistribute the energy of the Force around him. This is by far the most volatile and destructive of the three Force skills.
Note that traditionally, students learned Control first, then Sense, and finally Alter. Force-users operating without the benefit of a teacher might explore things in a different order.
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Just to clarify, Lightsaber Construction is a physical skill based on the Techical attribute, you don't need force skills to manufacture a lightsabre.
You do need them to really use it effectively, but anyone can pick up a sabre and use it as a Dex-based skill.
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What is the RAW?
Rules as written ... Obviously I either read the wrong rules or misread the right rules ;)
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The first "D" in your force skills costs 10 cp. After they, they level up like any skill would. Spend 10 cp and you get 1D in Control, Sense, or Alter. After that, they level up like any other skill. Training time is required, though you can still add pips on any skill you have used in the course of an adventure.
Every time you add a pip to a force skill, you learn one power based on that skill. You can also use CP's to buy a skill, and under exceptional circumstances, you can push your limits with a Force Point and learn a new power that way. Serendipity may also award one, and I might give you one from time to time.
If you're looking for a Jedi Knight archetype (Luke, Qui-Gon, Mace Windu), focus on Control and Sense (in that order). If you're looking for more of a mystic / sorcerer archetype (Yoda, the older Obi-Wan), focus on Sense and Alter. A Sith Sorcerer would focus on Alter and Sense.
I'll post a list of Force Powers at some point. The RAW leave some pretty big holes that I'll be filling in here and there.
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So if I want to develop a Force Skill for Jex, it would cost 10CP or 20CP if there is no teacher( it seems that for everything else without a teacher the cost is doubled)?
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You know, something seems wrong there.
Something in the back of my mind tells me when you buy force sensitivity, you get 1D in each of the three skills, but my memory isn't what it used to be.
I'll dig out my books tonight and go over the rules. Let me get back to you.
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So if I want to develop a Force Skill for Jex, it would cost 10CP or 20CP if there is no teacher( it seems that for everything else without a teacher the cost is doubled)?
Off the top of my head:
You're buying the first D as an attribute, no "double cost" applies there that I am aware of, so you can learn a force skill of 1D for 10cp. But again, let me check the rulebook. I'm running this based on 2nd Edition Revised and Expanded.
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From the d6 core rule book;
Learning a Force skill requires one week of intensive study and costs 10 Character Points. (The training time may be reduced one day per additional Character Point spent; the minimum training time is one day.) The character gets the skill at 1D. (The character is also taught one Force power pertaining to the skill)
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Force Skills
Teachers. A teacher must have at least 3D in
the Force skill to be taught; the teacher's skill
level must exceed the student's skill level.
A Jedi student must have a teacher to learn a Force
skill. Learning a Force skill requires one week of inten-
sive study and costs 10 Character Points. (The training
time may be reduced one day per additional Character
Point spent; the minimum training time is one day.)
The character gets the skill at ID. (The character is
also taught one Force power pertaining to the skill; see
"Force Powers.")
A Jedi student will most often be taught control first,
although some teachers begin instruction with the
sense skill. Alter is usually taught last.
Example: Ana wants to learn the control skill.
After finding a teacher, she goes through a week
of intensive study and training, and spends 10
Character Points. Ana receives control at ID and
learns one control Force power.
Use the following rules when improving Force skills:
Force skills (Control, sense and alter). Character
Point cost: To improve a Force skill by one pip costs a
number of Character Points equal to the current num-
ber before the "D." Double the Character Point cost
without a teacher. Training Time: Characters with a
teacher must train one day for each Character Point
spent; two days per Character Point without a teacher.
I think it would be reasonable in the absence of a teacher to double or more the cost to gain a force skill, possibly modify this depending on whether they have some other form of structure (old texts, cultural teachings etc...) or if they just figure it out on their own. Figuring it out on their own should be possible but expensive in CP and time (maybe even x3 or x4 normal cost), and I think it would also be reasonable to limit the Force powers learned to those that require only single Force skills, ie the hedge wizard idea, self taught in the most basic of forms, not capable of the more esoteric manifestations ...
Self-taught would gain a Force power, in fact the manifestation of that power is what has probably initialed the entire process. How is this for an example:
1. Person begins noticing the world around in a different way. They do not understand this - Gaining Force-sensitivity
2. Over time events (Force Powers) begin happening randomly, during periods of intense concentration/emotion that cannot be explained ie. being in the zone, but maybe somewhat more intense than that.
3. A period (fairly long) of introspection at the end of which they have taught themselves to somewhat control these events - Gaining first Force skill, and Force power.
4. Upgrading these powers/skills would then follow the RAW for non-teacher upgrades
5. New Force skills and powers would require longer periods of introspection again (you may wish to have a accelerated learning curve the more they teach themselves)
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Ken's been busy, so some of this may be repetitive.
Force-Sensitive
A character who is not Force-sensitive may choose to become Force-sensitive for 20 Character Points. (There is no training time requirement.)
The character receives one extra Force Point immediately, and must now play under the guidelines for Force-sensitive characters.
I think that and the stuff Trax posted about covers it. The rule book says you must have a teacher to learn Force skills, though the term "Teacher" has a variety of definitions. I'll allow you to take force skills without a teacher, at double cost.
So, no teacher, you can learn a force skill at 1D for 20cp, and it takes 40 days to learn it. Thereafter, the force skill is treated like any other skill, including double costs for not having a teacher.
Now that you're force sensitive, you're subject to some rules (which you were mostly following anyway).
The Responsible Use of Power
A Jedi acts from wisdom, using persuasion and counsel over violence and Force powers. Force powers are to be used to serve the interests of the light. Using the Force for personal aggrandizement, for personal power or wealth, for convenience when other means would be more prudent ? all of these traits are of the dark side.
A Call to Action
A Jedi cannot allow evil to occur by inaction ? a Jedi who voluntarily stands by and allows evil to be committed is encouraging the forces of darkness. Jedi are also bound by the actions of those around them. It is not acceptable for a Jedi to associate with those who wilfully choose to commit evil.
When a Jedi is confronted by a situation where evil is being committed, the Jedi must act to prevent that evil. There are a variety of means at the Jedi's disposal ? persuasion, creating a distraction, armed action or simple mind tricks ? but intervention is necessary.
Failure to follow those rules will earn you dark side points. If you're ever in a position where you will earn a dark side point, I'll warn you and give you a chance to edit your actions. However, if you ever earned your first dark side point, you will never again receive any warnings about dark side points.
Any time you earn a dark side point, I roll a d6. If I roll lower than your total dark side points, your character turns to the dark side and becomes a dark side character.
The Force grows from life, and a Jedi must act to preserve life. Sometimes that means taking lives, but never more than necessary, and a Jedi should consider other options when they can. It's not just about good and evil, it's about preserving life in all it's forms.
I think that covers everything. If you have any questions, let me know.
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Okay, so how do we learn Force powers then, same way double cost?
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You get one force power with your first D. After that, you'll automatically learn a force power every time you add a pip.
Beyond the ones you learn every time you add a pip to your force skills, you can spend 5 cp to learn a new force power (10 without a teacher) and practice it for 5 days (20 without a teacher).
At least at first (until you hit 6D), it'll be more efficient to learn the powers by learning pips, but you're probably going to want to keep learning them through pips anyway, except for exceptional circumstances.
I also might award you a power, and you might be able to "extend" yourself with a force point during an adventure and learn a power that way. Say, in an adventure, Niil is down in a pit and about to die in a fiery explosion, but you don't have the telekinesis power. You might be able to extend your limits, burn a force point and gain the telekinesis power to save him.
Make sense?
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...Say, in an adventure, Niil is down in a pit and about to die in a fiery explosion, but you don't have the telekinesis power. You might be able to extend your limits, burn a force point and gain the telekinesis power to save him....
Alternatively we could just embrace the Dark Side, and use our Force Points to feed the flames .... ;D
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Yes, that's always an option. I just assumed you would have been aware of it.
It's like saying a canary is yellow, the yellow part is redundant. :)
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Is that before the flames start or after they go out ...
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Damn, and this whole time I thought I needed a teacher to learn how to use The Force! Gaaar, time to start saving CP.
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Until now, you did. I'm allowing it, but only at this time.
I don't think either of you have the CP's for it yet.
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Heh . . . no, not even close. But I do have 5D in the Lightsaber skill. I probably need all those die just to hold it out at arm's length without slicing something/someone into jerky . . . ;D
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I want to talk about the double-cost for no trainer thing for Jedi skills. I've been thinking that maybe double cost is too easy. The book is pretty clear that without a teacher, there is no training.
However, at the same time, eventually, you'll reach a point where you won't be able to find a teacher. How do you improve then?
I think there needs to be a mechanism for improving your force skills without a teacher, but I worry that I may have set the bar too low.
20 CP and 40 days for training per force skill may be tough enough, but I want to have the conversation.
Keep in mind that Jedi start out fairly weak, and typically plateau once they start putting CP's into force skills as all their CP (typically) go into force skills. However once they hit the sweet spot where they can activate Lightsaber Combat reliably, they immediately surge forward and make up for lost time and thereafter advance in power at double the rate of other characters.
Now, there have been and will continue to be opportunities for Niil and Jex to find teachers on Karvis and beyond, and once that happens, this conversation becomes moot. However, until that happens, it's still relevant, and may become relevant again if, having found a teacher, something happens to remove their access to that teacher (death, imprisonment, etc).
So, is 20CP and 40 days per force skill tough enough? Or should it be more like 30 CP and 60 days? 40 CP and 80 days?
Also remember you can spend extra CP to shave off training time at 1CP = -1 day.
It's fairly certain that Jex and Niil will feel the ruling as it stands is sufficient, but I still want to hear thoughts on the subject.
Going back over my awards, you guys have been earning between 10 and 18 CP per mission.
On a related subject, what do I do with Jex and Niil when they're out for training for an extended period? I can run solo games for Ken (which allows him to surge ahead - don't worry, the Jedi will catch up) and given past experience such things will likely move quickly, but let's look at it anyway. Jex and Niil take up temporary, throwaway characters until their mains complete their training? Or do they just get parked until their training is complete?
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Heh . . . no, not even close. But I do have 5D in the Lightsaber skill. I probably need all those die just to hold it out at arm's length without slicing something/someone into jerky . . . ;D
You only risk injuring yourself if you roll a 10 or lower. So, at 5D, there's only a 3.24074% chance you'll lop something off.
:)
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Food for thought:
Teachers. A teacher is essential to a Jedi student's progress. Only after a Jedi has achieved a relatively high level of skill can the character rely on herself ... and even Luke, despite a high level of experience, needed to study under Yoda to become a full-fledged Jedi Knight.
Teachers do more than teach Force skills and powers ? they instruct students in the disciplines needed to maintain balance and adhere to the tenets of the light. A good teacher can help a young student learn patience and responsibility, while a poor teacher may allow a student to slip to the dark side; teachers consumed by the dark side may be able to corrupt even the purest Jedi adepts.
Limiting Powers. As noted, Jedi characters can only use powers they've been taught. Of course, they have to find someone to teach them each power.
This gives you a potent tool. The quest for a new teacher, new powers and lost lore is a great motivator for Jedi adventures.
This rule also allows you to limit the Force powers allowed in your game: if a Jedi can't find a teacher, there is no way to learn the power. Of course, your villains may be able to use these powers, but that's another matter ...
Perhaps you can only self-train once you have achieved a minimum level of skill (3D seems convenient).
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I have no problems either way, I'd just like to do what we can to try to avoid the major power shifts. I don't really want to see Trax reach a point where he's over powered compared to Jex or Niil, and I'd rather not see a point where they over shadow him by a large margin. Although I understand that as part of the SW universe, Jedi are exceedingly powerful compared to pretty much all others. But still, would there not be bounty hunters that are not force sensitive powerful enough to go up against Jedi? If there are that would indicate some way to keep some level of balance.
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Didn't we have rumors of a potential teacher lurking on Karvis? I seem to recall reading notes that some NPC was Force sensitive (or even a Jedi).
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Some of you know there is someone on the planet who may be a potential teacher, but so far no one has followed up on it.
Jex, Trax and Dawson have actually met him...
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Yeah, Jeremy's friend, or protector when Jex and Trax met him. Although was there any indication he was a potential Jedi, and if there was, would Trax or Jex have even noticed?
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Are those the old notes that are missing ...
A cover up ... just saying ...
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I have no problems either way, I'd just like to do what we can to try to avoid the major power shifts. I don't really want to see Trax reach a point where he's over powered compared to Jex or Niil, and I'd rather not see a point where they over shadow him by a large margin. Although I understand that as part of the SW universe, Jedi are exceedingly powerful compared to pretty much all others. But still, would there not be bounty hunters that are not force sensitive powerful enough to go up against Jedi? If there are that would indicate some way to keep some level of balance.
There are, certainly. Jedi are not invincible, and a little preparation can counter many of their abilities. Using a scatter-gun or a flame thrower, for example, makes the lightsaber useless as a defensive weapon.
Young Jedi are very weak, compared to others around them, and stay that way for a long time. But their power improves following a power curve, whereas a non-force-sensitive character improves linearly.
I do not think it will be much of an issue in this game, but one of the biggest complaints about the rules is that Jedi suck (or stand still, advancement-wise) for a long time, and then are over-powered immediately once they hit a certain point. Personally, I think that's just bad GM-ing, so it's not really a concern for me, but it is true that Jedi characters tend to stall once they get force skills, then leap forward once they can activate Lightsaber Combat.
A good GM has many tools to keep things in check - specialized opponents (flamethrowers and scatterguns - I once made a bounty hunter that had powerful energy shields in her bracers and used brawling parry to block lightsaber attacks).
Also, using force powers generates ripples in the Force. A Jedi who is careful, and only uses their powers when necessary generates small ripples. A Jedi who uses their force powers constantly and relies on them generates strong ripples that will attract a lot of attention for those able to sense such things - and those able to sense such things are likely not the kind of people you want to attract the attention of.
Still, I'm a little concerned the 20CP/40 Day thing may have lowered the bar too much. Two adventures, and Niil and Jex have their first force skill.
Though the rules are clear that you cannot learn a power without serendipity or a teacher (or a GM award). Maybe that is where a limit comes in? but if you can't learn a power without a teacher, then why can you learn the skill without on? Maybe I'm on the horns of a dilemma.
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Yeah, Jeremy's friend, or protector when Jex and Trax met him. Although was there any indication he was a potential Jedi, and if there was, would Trax or Jex have even noticed?
No, but I do clearly recall that Jex backed down completely the moment the old man opened his robe and put a metal cylinder into his hand. :)
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I do not remember that at all. It has been a while, but could you give us a somewhat more detailed recap?
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The rules state you can't learn a skill or power without a teacher. The only thing you can do without a teacher is improve skills/powers, but at double the time/cost.
I don't recall the cylinder but there again, would they recognize it as a light saber?
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I do not think it will be much of an issue in this game, but one of the biggest complaints about the rules is that Jedi suck (or stand still, advancement-wise) for a long time, and then are over-powered immediately once they hit a certain point. Personally, I think that's just bad GM-ing, so it's not really a concern for me, but it is true that Jedi characters tend to stall once they get force skills, then leap forward once they can activate Lightsaber Combat.
I think this would be more a player issue wouldn't it? I think it would be like Trax suddenly not using his heavy blaster pistol anymore and only focusing on using melee combat. It would be a long time before he be effective.
Which as an aside, I'm strongly considering adding some more melee skill to his repertoire.
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You guys were working a bounty on Jeremy Wilton. You found him in the Bladesea in a dugout hovel. There was an old guy with him who said he was going to defend him. You guys were going to bring in Jeremy, until the old dude pulled out a metal cylinder, then Jex backed off completely, and you guys let him go and left the bounty open.
Or maybe you faked his death? I don't recall exactly.
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We faked his death after beating up the other hunters that came after him. That's when Trax got the corellian power suit that didn't work out well for him in the bar.
I remember us backing off, I thought it was just more of Jex's moral fuddy duddy that was the reason.
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Ummmm, old dude with a metal cylinder? Possible Jedi tracher? Yo? And of COURSE that had to be one of they very few times I wasn't with Jex and Trax. Go figure.
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It was probably a water canteen ...
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We faked his death after beating up the other hunters that came after him. That's when Trax got the corellian power suit that didn't work out well for him in the bar.
I remember us backing off, I thought it was just more of Jex's moral fuddy duddy that was the reason.
Right, thanks Ken. That's how it went down. But I do recall that Jex backed off and had his moral quandary as soon as the old dude pulled that cylinder, but my memory is not the best, as we've clearly seen.
I remember being very disappointed he backed you down... :)
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Awwww, no evil grin icon for the GM? :P
But damn, it would have been uproariously funny if it was just an old coot with a can of mace . . . ;D
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You keep saying Jex and Niil. But have you forgotten poor little Collan is also Force-Sensitive...:D
He'd like a teacher as well.
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If Jex and Trax had fought the old guy and used force points during the battle, would they have been considered the bag guys?
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Nope, they'd be considered an entertaining challenge for the old guy. ;D
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"entertaining challenge"
I suppose, in the same way that 2 red ants would be an entertaining challenge for the meteor that contributed to the Cretaceous?Paleogene extinction event. >:D
I kid, he's not (quite) that powerful...
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Not quite as powerful as the extinction-event meteor? Well, that's a relief. Maybe we could drop him from high orbit on Coruscant, then . . .
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So...has it been decided...20CPs and 40 days of training? Would it be continuous training or can it be broken up? Like for example, you could train exclusively for a week and do maintenance excercises for a mission and then return to exclusive training. Only exclusive training counts towards the 40 days. That might add some additional burden that you pay the CPs upfront and then effective training time goes out to 40 days or beyond...
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20Cp and 40 days of training, and you'll learn one power. Thereafter, new powers cannot be learned without a "teacher" or some form, but additional pips can be purchased as per untrained skill advancement. Note that if you use force skills on a mission, there is no training requirement.
The initial training does not have to be continuous, but should be the primary focus of the time. So, you could go on missions for the rebels, etc, but all your free time must be spent in training or sleeping.
Make sense?