Karvis

Administration => House Rules => Topic started by: GM Craig on March 25, 2013, 07:52:31 PM

Title: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: GM Craig on March 25, 2013, 07:52:31 PM
The typical specialization under Brawling is only the basics of martial arts. There is a whole world of advanced skills out there allowing special moves and defensive abilities. Advanced Martial Arts has sub-specializations, which correspond to specific styles of combat.

Advanced skills are tracked separately from the governing attribute. For example, if you have a strength of 3D, and put CP's into (A) Martial Arts, your (A) Martial Arts rolls are at 1D.

Advanced skills cost double CP to improve compared to standard skills.

(A) Martial Arts falls either under strength (for offensive) or Dex (for defence). Offensive and defensive (A) Martial Arts are skilled and tracked separately.

There are specializations to (A) Martial Arts, and the specialization corresponds to a particular style.

General martial arts combat add together the Brawling: Martial Arts dice to the (A) Martial Arts (Strength) dice. Similarly, general martial arts defensive rolls add together the Brawling Parry: Martial Arts and (A) Martial Arts (Dexterity) dice.

Within the different styles, there are special moves known only to that style. A couple of (draft) examples are shown below:

Hapan Martial Arts
TechniqueDescriptionDifficultyEffect
FeintThe character can feint to draw off an opponent's defence.EasyIf the character makes the required skill roll, he fakes a maneuver to draw his opponent off. If the opponent's Perception roll is lower than the character's martial arts skill roll, the character gains a +2D to his next attack skill roll.
RoundhouseThe character is trained to deliver a spinning kick to the head.ModerateA successful skill roll indicates that the character delivers a spinning kick to the head of an opponent. In addition to the +1D to damage, the opponent is considered "Stunned" for the remainder of the round.
Snap KickThe character is trained to deliver a powerful kick with relative speed.ModerateIf the character makes the required skill roll, he may deliver a powerful kick at Strength+1D damage with such speed that he may make one other hand-to-hand attack this round without incurring the multiple action penalty.
Flawless CounterThe character can counter a melee attack to perfection.DifficultIf the character makes the required skill roll, his next attack (which must be a hand-to-hand attack) is automatically successful.
Triple KickThe character is trained to deliver three attacks with his foot.DifficultThe character, after making the skill roll, may deliver a trio of powerful kicks at Strength+2 damage in a single round. Any further actions this round incur the multiple action penalty as normal.

Echani Martial Arts Style
TechniqueDescriptionDifficultyEffect
Hilt BlowThe character can use the hilt of a weapon to strike a stunning blow.EasyIf the character makes the required skill roll, he may attempt to strike an opponent with the hilt of his weapon, causing that character to be stunned for the remainder of the round.
Rolling ThrowThe character can roll backwards and throw an enemy with force.ModerateIf the character makes the required skill roll, he may roll onto his back and throw an opponent backwards. If the opponent is thrown into a wall or other solid object, they suffer 2D damage.
Throat JabThe character is trained to target breathing tubes in the throats of opponents.Moderate Characters using this manoeuvre may target breathing tubes or blood veins in opponents necks to strike at. If the character is successful in making his skill roll, his opponent may take no other actions this round due to shock and blood/air blockage.
Pivot KickThe character can pivot on a hand or weapon and deliver a powerful kick.DifficultIf the character makes the required skill roll, he may spin using the hilt of a weapon, or his hand, as a pivot to inflict STR+1D damage to the legs of an opponent. If the damage roll ends with a stun result, the opponent falls to the ground. This may be used as a reaction skill while falling down.
Whirlwind AttackThe character is trained to attack multiple enemies at close range.Very DifficultWhen surrounded at close range, Royal Guardsmen are trained to use this technique to eliminate nearby threats. If the character's skill roll is successful, he may attack up to 3 enemies within arm's reach using the martial arts skill roll as his attack roll for each opponent (no multiple action penalty).

Ter?s K?si Martial Arts

Special Rules: While using Ter?s K?si abilities, the character cannot do anything else that round, including dodge.
TechniqueDescriptionDifficultyEffect
Power BoostUsing their mental discipline, the Ter?s K?si fighter can redistribute up to half their (A) Martial Arts dice to their attributes.Very DifficultIf the character is successful, they may transfer some of their Martial Arts dice to their attributes (note - does not affect their skills), though the Ter?s K?si fighter may not exceed racial maximums by more than 1D.
Damage ReductionThe Ter?s K?si fighter can transfer half of their (A) Martial Arts defensive dice to harden their body as if they were wearing armour.DifficultThe Ter?s K?si student gains as many D physical armour as the dice transferred as physical armour, and one third of that as energy armour.
Leg SweepThe Ter?s K?si student drops low and swings their leg in a powerful circle, attempting to knock down all opponents adjacent to them.ModerateAnyone adjacent to the Ter?s K?si student must make a competing balance roll or be knocked to the ground.
Damage BoostThe Ter?s K?si student can transfer up to half of their (A) Martial Arts dice to their Strength dice when determining (A) MArtial Arts damage.EasyThe Ter?s K?si student may give up to half their D on their attack roll to increase their damage dice.
Defensive BoostInstead of resisting damage, the Ter?s K?si student can transfer half of their (A) Martial Arts dice to improve defensive rolls.ModerateThe Ter?s K?si student can designate half of their (A) Martial Arts dice be counter for defensive rolls. These then create a "pool" of dice the character can spend on defensive rolls for the next round as if they were CP.
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: GM Craig on March 26, 2013, 08:40:58 AM
Just an additional note - there would be many other styles, with their own moves.
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: Trax on March 26, 2013, 09:35:37 AM
This is most likely what I'll be looking into once Jex and Niil start their Jedi training.
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: Collan on April 04, 2013, 08:16:05 AM
Do the special moves also include the base moves listed in the Spec Forces manual like Instant Stand? I always had great luck with that when playing Nicholas...
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: GM Craig on April 04, 2013, 09:21:56 AM
I'll have to review those. I thought things like instant stand were style-specific moves.
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: Collan on April 23, 2014, 07:58:26 AM
I've been taking some Krav Maga classes and learned a couple techniques. Given the Middle Eastern flavoring, it seems relevant:

Kick Fake.
Difficulty: Moderate
Description: combatant fakes a kick with one leg that turns into a small hop to drive power for the other leg to deliver the real kick. As the kicking leg returns to neutral position, the combatant sets and delivers a follow up kick with the leg used to fake a moment before.
Effect: +1D to attack, +1D damage due to double kick

Hip Plant.
Difficulty: difficult
Description: upon being grappled, the combatant shoots hips and legs backwards to conduct an uncontrolled fall slightly to one side to plant one hip into the ground and then pop back up.
Effect: if an enemy has a successful grapple, characters knowing this technique receive an automatic roll to break the grapple and follow up with an attack at no multiple action penalty
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: Nightshade on June 22, 2015, 09:31:36 PM
So, I don't know if I am the only one here who is a student of martial arts, but as a red belt (at one and a half years of study) in Tae Kwan Do, I have to admit that I really disagree with a style of martial arts being an advanced skill.  It makes sense for Medicine and Engineering, where you have to study for a lot of years and get a degree before you acquire that skill, and in each field there are basics on which the advanced skills are built.  However there are no basic martial arts...if anyone is studying a martial art they are studying a style from day one.  The white belt beginning students in my academy learn the same moves that I do as a red belt, I am just expected to be that much better at them.

Also to separate it out as advanced skill seems to be going against what is listed in the WEG source material, and yes I know that this is Craig's game and he can make whatever rules he likes, but I have yet to see him make a ruling that is more restrictive than the source material that we have access to...it seems that normally the house rules are to bridge gaps that we come across that the source material does not cover.  Doing this basically makes the styles useless as someone who is devoting their character points in to this will either have to be a serious one-trick pony, which seems to go against what Craig wants in his games, or be such a complete novice that a child with a stick will stand a good change of beating him.  Now if a child with a stick beats me at martial arts, well look out for flying pigs, and icicles in hell.  There will be no advantage to sinking character points into these styles when you can accomplish pretty much the same thing with a straight up melee combat skill and a good weapon.  With the exception of a couple of really basic moves that have an easy rating, the others have at least a moderate difficulty rating...meaning that you would have to have at least 4-5D in the skill to average a 50% success rate! By the time I have done that I could have gotten up to 8D in a basic skill and be just about guaranteed of accomplishing moderate and difficult tasks and be 50% success at the very difficult ones.

The way I envision styles is that it is more of an enhanced story mechanic to give flavor to your martial arts and taking the kicking, punching, and blocking up a notch to really flow into a fantastic tale of space opera, the heart of Star Wars.  I know this next part only makes sense to Craig, but that is what I was going for in my style, all of the moves being based on what I know from my own training (a style of only five moves is very limited and certainly wouldn't be called advanced in any of the modern martial arts schools), but even if you debate this point, I think that we should let styles tell a story and not be a goal no one wants to obtain. 
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: GM Craig on June 22, 2015, 10:55:12 PM
OK, for comparison:

A Heavy Blaster Pistol specialist does not learn trick shots like "Three-Hit-Ricochet" or "Silent Shot". A specialist in Vibroblade does not learn a "Dragon Whips Tail" special attack that lets them attack three opponents without penalty.

The specializations allow you to get better at something that the base skill for half the character points. So, you sink points into the specialization for heavy blaster pistol. You're then better with heavy blaster pistols than regular blasters or blaster rifles. The specialization (which limits you) is made up for by being better with a sub-category of weapon. It doesn't give you extra tricks, one-shot kills or special defences. So I use that as a comparison for what is allowable under a specialization.

So, I will not allow someone to spend half the character points to improve a particular form of brawling, and become way more deadly with that dub-class than someone who specialized in heavy blaster pistol. So, on it's face, the special moves of martial arts are a non-starter in the rules as written. Special martial arts rules are also not part of the core rules - they were printed in specialized supplements.

So, on it's face, special moves are a non starter.

However, I like the flavour. Teras Kasi, Echani and Hapan martial arts are part of the extended universe for Star Wars. Martial Artists exist. But it is way to overpowered to make them part of what amounts to a weapon specialization. So, I tried to find a way to incorporate special moves into the game that did not break the point of specialization. I allow you to take the special moves as an advanced skill.

Both Ben and Corey have mentioned you guys take martial arts, and you have both compared the strikes and moves you learn to the game rules. I think that's not an appropriate comparison. Think of the martial arts you learn at your weekly class as the baseline martial arts skill. But true practitioners can perform heroic feats like the Kung Fu warriors of legend (like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon). THAT is the point of the Martial Arts (A) skill. So, a Teras Kasi master can increase their attributes, become deadlier, quicker and tougher than is normal for a human. A master of Hapan martial arts can strike out with a single kick and hit three opponents faster than the eye can see (in a single segment of combat time, as opposed to three separate actions). A master of Echani martial arts can leap and spin through opponents faster than the eye can follow. These are heroic feats, and I envision them being beyond those who merely practice martial arts. A master of the Martial arts you are developing, Ben, can kill someone with a single strike (if they strike from surprise) regardless of armour or protection. You have specials that make you quicker, harder to see, and deadlier than someone with a standard "once a week for an hour" martial arts class. Special moves are a mark of devotion to the study of that particular art.

And you can pick up moves from more than one art, if you find a teacher and learn moves from that style. Want to walk up walls? Balance on a tiny tree limb? Fly through the air? You can build a martial art around those moves, and perform these heroic feats.

Also note that when you do standard martial arts fighting (no special moves), you combine the martial arts specialization with your martial arts (A) dice, meaning your advanced study makes you more effective with even the basics than a novice. The Martial Arts (A) moves only use your Martial Arts (A) dice, but your damage and standard attacks / defence are rolled normally.

I definitely see a place for martial arts moves in the game, but not as a specialized form of brawling. To get the advanced martial arts moves, you need to devote time to studying it, as an advanced skill. I haven't heard anything so far that makes me thing otherwise. And I'm not going to give a brawling specialization more advantages than someone who specializes in heavy blaster pistol.

So, the options are special moves becoming available as an offshoot of a dedicated study of advanced martial arts, or they are removed from the game entirely. I'm certainly not about to work out a bunch of trick shots someone with Heavy Blaster Pistol specialization can do.

Now, having said all that, I can possibly see a case to remove the Offensive / Defensive split. And the Silent Kill DC you and I discussed over e-mail may have been a little high, comparatively. But I think the overall premise is sound, and I haven't heard anything so far that convinces me otherwise.

My ruling stands. I'm still open to continuing discussions about this topic, provided you have something to contribute or a new perspective to the discussion that hasn't been covered already.

If you guys seriously see no value to this, then we'll yank the special moves entirely.
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: Trax on June 23, 2015, 07:36:19 AM
I don't think using a style like Karate, Kung Fu or Tae Kwan Do to emulate what's being proposed here is accurate.  I agree with Craig in that those types of things would be covered by the base skill.  There are much more effective and dangerous/deadly styles of martial arts that require many, many more years of study to master and I think that's what's intended by these rules (along with some much less real life type stuff).

Now having said that I was planning on starting this once the force sensitive characters started training their jedi skills but now I'm leaning more towards focusing on Resist Force and just up my base martial arts skills as per normal.

I'm mixed about the offense/defense, it seems a little expensive in terms of both cps and time but I can see how one could focus on one aspect of the art in favor of the other.  But having the advanced skill apply to both would essentially make it cost half of what it would for other advanced skills.

And what's this about a silent kill?
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: GM Craig on June 23, 2015, 08:00:05 AM
In the "Republic Special Forces" handbook, they have a martial art detailed there that includes a move called "Silent Strike" that, if successful, allows a one-hit kill/incapacitate (player choice).
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: Trax on June 23, 2015, 08:16:49 AM
How does that work exactly?  Does the target still get to roll to resist damage?
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: GM Craig on June 23, 2015, 08:48:55 AM
Not according to the sourcebook. The attacker make a roll, and if successful, the target is killed of incapacitated, at the attackers choice.
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: Nightshade on June 23, 2015, 08:53:54 AM
Yes, think like a marine killing a sentry by snapping his neck...it requires complete surprise and stealth rolls to get into place to perform and then a difficult skill check to accomplish it.
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: Nightshade on June 23, 2015, 09:04:50 AM
Also, a round is six seconds, and I can tell you that even our beginning students can land three attacks in that time, it doesn't require years of training...however I don't think I can convince you without actually showing you or having you witness a class, and I doubt you would think it wor that much effort, which I understand.

I do think that by making it an advanced skill you should remove the offense, defense split or it really isn't worth it.  Styles tend to focus on one or the other, like Judo is mostly defensive with throws and locks, etc. and Karate is more offensive with strikes.  So it really limits the usefulness of choosing a style at all if you have to essentially quadruple the cost to improve both sides. 

It my time as a GM I looked at this time of game a lot differently than the basic tabletop game these rules are based on.  The very nature of time delay in a forum based game balances out some of the character point costs, i.e. in an active tabletop game you could be earning 10 cps a month, while in a forum game you might earn 10 cps a year.  Maybe this game goes faster than that, however the threads that I have read don't seem to bear that out.  This bei the case, then I think that there would be no point in maintaining the split if it could be three actual years before I can get enough skill to do any of the moves with any chance of success.
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: Trax on June 23, 2015, 09:42:14 AM
Not according to the sourcebook. The attacker make a roll, and if successful, the target is killed of incapacitated, at the attackers choice.
Yes, think like a marine killing a sentry by snapping his neck...it requires complete surprise and stealth rolls to get into place to perform and then a difficult skill check to accomplish it.

If we get to vote, my vote is going to be against incorporating this attack into the game.  Only because I don't like instakills in any game mechanics.  Players tend to forget that if they have access to such a skill/ability the GM and enemy npcs do as well.  And npcs are likely to be much more highly specialized/effective in said skills and abilities.
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: GM Craig on June 23, 2015, 10:09:23 AM
Ken brings up the very valid "Sauce for the goose" point. Thanks, Ken.

If it's allowed for players, it's allowed for NPC's, so consider being on the receiving end of these abilities.
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: Niil Spaar on June 23, 2015, 10:23:26 AM
Uhhhh . . . no thanks.  Niil has enough problems with the bounty hunters.  He doesn't need Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan coming after him.   ;D

*SHHH-DOOOF *

"HEY!  YOU BOOTED ME IN THE HEAD!"
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: GM Craig on June 23, 2015, 10:37:26 AM
I'm not trying to disparage the martial arts training you guys may have had with all this. If that is how my comments were taken, I apologize for any perceived insult or lack of respect. It was not intentional.

I am hoping for consensus. I don't want this to be a divisive issue. I don't want an acrimonious discussion, and I certainly don't want this to devolve into ad hominem attacks. If it starts to turn that way, I'll simply scrap the specials entirely. That's not a threat, and it isn't my preferred choice, but it is an option.

I like the flavour and concept. I want to find some way to incorporate it into the game. I think advanced skills is a way to do that without breaking game balance. Is it the best way? Maybe, maybe not.

I still haven't heard my concern addressed about brawling:martial arts -vs- Blaster: Blaster Pistol specializations, and how one gets special moves and the other does not.

The existing rules already cover things like multiple attacks and the like. That's part of the basic rules. I'm trying to find a way to make kung-fu movie type abilities available. Instant simultaneous strikes faster than the eye can follow. Leaping huge distances. Running up walls. In the abstraction rules of WEG's D6 Star Wars, those kinds of moves are not going to be something that a recreational student of martial arts can do. I'm firm on that - I want specials to be the result of dedicated study. I want specials to be set apart from what the garden variety brawler can do. I want them to be relatively rare. I want them to be meaningful. I want them to be powerful, but not overwhelmingly so. And I do not want everyone who knows a little martial arts to have access to them.

I'm trying to find a way to bring special moves into the game without breaking game balance. Treating a brawling specialization as different than a heavy blaster pistol specialization, to my mind, breaks game balance. Why wouldn't everyone have a martial arts specialization? Allowing specials off the specialization is, I think, game-breaking. I want this stuff in game, but not enough to break the game to make it happen. I want a Star Wars game, not a Kung Fu in Space game. Know what I mean?

So lets work together and see if we can find something that works to make this possible.
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: Trax on June 23, 2015, 10:53:53 AM
I still haven't heard my concern addressed about brawling:martial arts -vs- Blaster: Blaster Pistol specializations, and how one gets special moves and the other does not.

I would say if someone wants to do a trick shot, throw out a DC.  There are already DCs for hitting small targets etc. I don't see this as being much of a stretch.  I get that a sharp shooter is very different from a trick shooter, but without going overboard and adding extraneous rules that will rarely come up I think it's the best solution.

I would apply the same mechanics for special attacks, you want to do a spinning kick to someone's head for a stun or extra damage, you have to beat the persons parry roll by 'x'.  If you beat their roll by less than 'x' it's a normal hit, if you beat it by 'x' or more, then you've successfully landed the intended/special strike.  That's enough I think to cover most of the moves listed in the Special forces book.

But for the advanced/more way out of reality type moves, then I think the advanced skill needs to be in play.

I understand Nightshade's (Ben?) concern about it taking a year plus of real life time before your character can effectively use certain skills, but really, that can be said for any skill you suddenly decide to take.  It's just the nature of play by post games.
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: Collan on June 23, 2015, 11:05:13 AM
I would say treat Martial Arts as a separate skill, and require 5D to learn advanced arts like Echani. Like real life you can cross specialize but the tricks require a roll in the advanced discipline while straight up attack rolls sum the dice if the base and advanced skills. Another option would be to allow players to shift some martial arts dice to brawling parry as part of the skill.
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: GM Craig on June 23, 2015, 11:18:44 AM
The original concept required 5D in Brawling:Martial Arts to learn the advanced skills.

I initially went with two advanced skills because there are two martial arts specializations. I had envisioned a more defensive style using the dex-based Martial Arts (A), and a more power-based style using the strength-based Martial Arts (A), but that leaves balanced styles out in the cold.

I'm not sure how to reconcile that, except to perhaps scrap the brawling parry: martial arts-based advanced skill.

Or, perhaps make Martial Arts (A) not tied to an attribute, and require either 5D in Brawling Parry: Martial Arts -or- 5D in Brawling: Martial Arts to begin learning the advanced skill. Moves would then be universal (not tied to a defensive/offensive skill), and a style's move selection becomes more one of flavour and based on a specific skill.

Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: GM Craig on June 23, 2015, 11:25:24 AM
To break out of the "Styles" pigeon hole, maybe do it similar to force skills? When you first pick up Martial Arts (A) you learn all the moves in the given style. 5 moves come free. If you want to branch out, you can learn moves from other styles and techniques for a 5CP cost, if you can find a teacher. That gives players some customization.
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: GM Craig on June 23, 2015, 11:27:46 AM
Nightshade took a move from the Spec Force Handbook called Silent Strike. It's a one-shot-kill type move. I'm not a big fan of those kinds of things, for obvious reasons. I'd much prefer a damage bonus rather than a one-shot-kill, and I'm strongly leaning that way. It wasn't a done deal in our preliminary discussions.

I put up some sample moves in the original topic, but we don't have to be limited to those. I just put these there as examples of the kind of things I was thinking about.
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: Niil Spaar on June 23, 2015, 11:42:19 AM
To break out of the "Styles" pigeon hole, maybe do it similar to force skills? When you first pick up Martial Arts (A) you learn all the moves in the given style. 5 moves come free. If you want to branch out, you can learn moves from other styles and techniques for a 5CP cost, if you can find a teacher. That gives players some customization.

AHA!  That's what I was starting on before the courier exodus started here!  Except I'd also add that a PC could create his/her own martial art style (ie. without a teacher), but at 2x the CP and at least 2X the time.
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: GM Craig on June 23, 2015, 11:48:26 AM
Yeah, that could work, Darren.
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: Nightshade on June 23, 2015, 05:37:18 PM
No, I didn't take any offense about actual training, nor did I mean any, I was just trying to explain that I couldn't think of a way to really convey what I was trying to say with words, but that it needed a visual aid to really grasp my concept.

That aside...to answer your concern about special moves vs blaster specializations, I see it as being a way to counter the disparity between damages between the two weapons...blasters do a ton more damage than martial arts or brawling and the special moves help make this less of a gap and keep it as a valid story hook.  Otherwise why use a skill that does no more than 4d damage if I can get my hands on something that can do up to 6d (maybe more?).

I will say that I like the concept of treating them like the Force skills and I think that this is a good compromise between both points of view. What about tying in defense and offense like control, sense and alter if you still wanted to incorporate that? Maybe that would give some balance between purely offensive styles, defensve styles, and a more rounded balanced style which would give more bonuses but require more CPs in return?
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: GM Craig on June 23, 2015, 05:51:52 PM
So abandon the advanced skill paradigm, and treat them like force skills? Standard costs for increasing them, moves are powers? That could work. I'll need to give it some thought.

If we went that route, I think I'd want to make new moves a flat 5cp (to raise the bar a little an make up for loosing the advanced skill cost). You get one defensive move and one offensive move with your first D (presumably from the trainer that got you to your first D in MA:O and MA:D).

It makes styles or schools a little less important, which isn't really much of an issue, and if someone is wiling to invest the time and CP, they could learn a butt-load of specials. But doing so would hold them back in other areas.

This could work.

Thoughts? Feedback? Comments?
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: GM Craig on June 23, 2015, 05:52:37 PM
Note: I do not want this to be a replacement for Jedi skills and powers, so specials would have to scale accordingly.
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: Niil Spaar on June 23, 2015, 07:47:28 PM
So abandon the advanced skill paradigm, and treat them like force skills? Standard costs for increasing them, moves are powers? That could work. I'll need to give it some thought.

If we went that route, I think I'd want to make new moves a flat 5cp (to raise the bar a little an make up for loosing the advanced skill cost). You get one defensive move and one offensive move with your first D (presumably from the trainer that got you to your first D in MA:O and MA:D).

It makes styles or schools a little less important, which isn't really much of an issue, and if someone is wiling to invest the time and CP, they could learn a butt-load of specials. But doing so would hold them back in other areas.

This could work.

Thoughts? Feedback? Comments?


Sounds good to me.  It's like any other "career path" in this game.  If you want to invest heavily in a certain set of skills, you're going to be deficient in other areas. 
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: Trax on June 24, 2015, 07:33:51 AM
Does this mean these dice would no longer be combined with the base/specialized martial arts skill(s)?  And would the net cp cost and training time be any different than your proposed rules?  What would the training costs be in time and cp in each scenario if the skill was brought to 5D?
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: GM Craig on June 24, 2015, 08:41:40 AM
They would still combine with Brawling Parry: Martial Arts defence and Brawlijng:Martial Arts attack rolls.

Getting into and advancing the skills would be cheaper than what I had originally proposed. But adding new techniques and moves would be more expensive. Not sure how it looks over the long haul - you're not paying double CP to increase it, but you also no longer get five moves for free, only 2.
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: Trax on July 27, 2015, 01:00:28 PM
So abandon the advanced skill paradigm, and treat them like force skills? Standard costs for increasing them, moves are powers? That could work. I'll need to give it some thought.

If we went that route, I think I'd want to make new moves a flat 5cp (to raise the bar a little an make up for loosing the advanced skill cost). You get one defensive move and one offensive move with your first D (presumably from the trainer that got you to your first D in MA:O and MA:D).

It makes styles or schools a little less important, which isn't really much of an issue, and if someone is wiling to invest the time and CP, they could learn a butt-load of specials. But doing so would hold them back in other areas.

This could work.

Thoughts? Feedback? Comments?

Is this the route we're going?  If so, are the special moves coming (primarily) from the spec forces book?
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: GM Craig on July 27, 2015, 01:31:06 PM
Yes, this is the route we're taking. I'm not going with the spec forces handbook, as written, however. There are some skills there that are way too powerful. However, you can use those as a guideline. I'll hammer out the details as people start acquiring the moves. The examples I listed in the opening post are examples you can use as written.

I'll get around to posting a full list, but in the meantime post what you want to take below, and I'll rule on it or make modifications.
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: GM Craig on July 27, 2015, 03:37:18 PM
Just to reiterate something - the SpecForce Handbook is not accepted as written. The powers there are often far too powerful. Feel free to use them as inspiration, but I will not allow them into the game un-vetted.

If you want a power from that source in the game, but I haven't posted about it here, then post it and I'll edit / correct / modify so that it fits.

Examples of powers that are over the top (this is not a definitive list): Silent Strike, Weapon Block, Instant Wound, Disarm.

In general, if you want something from that handbook, post it here and I'll vet it.
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: Trax on July 28, 2015, 07:42:44 AM
Are there any currently in play that have already been edited?  Just to save on duplication.  Should we maybe have a separate thread where only the revised powers are posted, all discussions, first drafts are posted here?
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: Trax on July 28, 2015, 10:09:28 AM
Here are the techniques as listed in the Special Forces book

TechniqueDescriptionDifficultyEffect
BlindfightingThe character is trained to use senses other than sight to locate a targetVery DifficultIf the character makes the required skill roll and is within striking distance of the target, they may ignore the effects of blindness.  They cannot see, but can hear or smell a target well enough to strike.  This may be used as a reaction skill
DisarmThe character is trained to force an opponent to drop a weapon or objectModerateIf the character's attack is successful and not parried or dodged, and if the skill roll meets the required difficulty number, the target is disarmed
Elbow SmashThe character is trained to deliver a powerful blow with their elbowVery EasyThe character can add +1D to their damage roll if the skill roll is successful
FlipThe character can throw a target who has grappled them from behindModerateA successful skill check indicates that the target is hurled to the ground provided the attack is not parried or dodged.  The target suffers 3D damage.  This may be used as a reaction skill.
Flying KickThe character is trained to leap to deliver a crushing attackDifficultThe character can add +2D to their damage roll if their skill roll exceeds the difficulty number.  Failure to beat the difficulty number indicates the character is off balance and their opponent may make an additional attack this round with no multiple action penalty.
Foot SweepThe character can trip an opponentModerateA successful attempt indicates the target is tripped, falling to the ground.  The target must remain prone for the remainder of the round.
HeadbuttThe character can user their head to strike a target, even if they are held, pinned or bound.EasyIf the character's skill roll meets the difficulty number they may use their head to strike the target inflicting STR+1D damage; can be used if the character is bound or held; can be used as a reaction skill.
Hold/GrappleThe character is trained to grapple and hold a target immobileModerate plus an opposed Strength rollThe character attempting to grapple with a target must make a Moderate martial arts roll to hold their opponent.  For every round the target is held the character must make an opposed Strength roll.  If the target beats their Strength roll they break free of the hold
Instant KnockdownThe character knows how to maximize impact, knocking the target to the floorModerateIf the character's attack is successful and not parried or dodged, and if the skill roll meets the required difficulty number, the target is knocked to the ground.  The fallen character must either wait one round to stand or suffer multiple action penalties.
Instant StandThe character is trained to negate the effects of a fall and return to a standing, combat-ready position.ModerateIf a character is tripped or knocked down, they may return to a standing position without suffering a multiple-action penalty.
Instant StunThe character is trained to strike at critical pressure points that effect breathing or the nervous system, stunning the targetModerateIf the character's attack is successful and not parried or dodged, and if the skill roll meets the required difficulty, the target is stunned for one round
Instant WoundThe character knows how to strike to maximum effect, inflicting sever damage on the targetDifficultIf the character's attack is successful, and is not parried or dodged, and if the skill roll meets the required difficulty number, the target suffers a wound.
Multiple StrikesThe character can deliver multiple blows.ModerateThe character can make a second attack with no multiple-action penalties.  The second attack inflicts 3D damage.
Nerve PunchThe character knows the location of nerve clusters, striking in such a way as to render the target's limb numb.Very DifficultIf successful, the character's attack renders an opponents limb (arm or leg, specified prior to making the attempt) unusable for 3D rounds.  Any items held in the effect hand are dropped.  If the character beats the difficulty number by 15 or more, the target is rendered unconscious
Power BlockThe character is trained to parry attacks in a manner which inflicts damage.ModerateA successful parry inflicts STR+1D damage on the target.  This can be used as a reaction skill.
ReversalThe character is trained to turn the tables on an opponent who is attempting to grapple.Opposed Strength or Brawling: Martial Arts roll (which ever is higher).The character can employ this only when they are held.  If they break the opponent's grip, they may in turn hold the target immobile or employ another technique.  This may be used as a reaction skill.
Silent StrikeProvided the character can successfully sneak up on a target, they can instantly kill or render the target unconsciousDifficultThe character must be within arms reach of the target.  The character must declare if this is a killing or stunning attack prior to making the attempt.  A successful skill roll indicates the target is neutralized.
Spinning KickThe character is trained to perform a powerful kick.ModerateThe character can add +1D to their damage roll if the skill roll exceeds the difficulty number.  Failure to beat the difficulty number indicates the character is off balance and their opponent may make an additional attack with no multiple action penalties.
Shoulder ThrowThe character can throw a targetModerateA successful skill check indicates that the target is hurled to the ground, provided the attack is not parried or dodged, suffering 3D damage.
Weapon-BlockThe character is trained to parry melee attacks, even when they do not possess a melee weapon.Opposed Martial Arts versus Melee Combat rollIf the character makes the required difficulty roll, they successfully block a melee attack
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: GM Craig on July 28, 2015, 11:19:28 AM
Copied here for discussion.

TechniqueDescriptionDifficultyEffect
BlindfightingThe character is trained to use senses other than sight to locate a targetVery DifficultIf the character makes the required skill roll and is within striking distance of the target, they may ignore the effects of blindness.  They cannot see, but can hear or smell a target well enough to strike.  This may be used as a reaction skill
DisarmThe character is trained to force an opponent to drop a weapon or objectModerateIf the character's attack is successful and not parried or dodged, and if the skill roll meets the required difficulty number, the target is disarmed must succeed in a competing Strength or Dex check (Attacker's choice) to maintain control of their weapon.
Elbow SmashThe character is trained to deliver a powerful blow with their elbowVery EasyThe character can add +1D to their damage roll if the skill roll is successful
FlipThe character can throw a target who has grappled them from behindModerateA successful skill check indicates that the target is hurled to the ground provided the attack is not parried or dodged.  The target suffers 3D STR damage.  This may be used as a reaction skill.
Flying KickThe character is trained to leap to deliver a crushing attackDifficultThe character can add +2D to their damage roll if their skill roll exceeds the difficulty number.  Failure to beat the difficulty number indicates the character is off balance and their opponent may make an additional attack this round without incurring any additional multiple action penalty. The attacker must be able to move a minimum 5 meters in a straight line before making this attack.
Foot SweepThe character can trip an opponentModerateA successful attempt indicates the target is tripped, falling to the ground.  The target must remain prone for the remainder of the round.
HeadbuttThe character can user their head to strike a target, even if they are held, pinned or bound.EasyIf the character's skill roll meets the difficulty number they may use their head to strike the target inflicting STR+1D damage; can be used if the character is bound or held; can be used as a reaction skill.
Hold/GrappleThe character is trained to grapple and hold a target immobileModerate plus an opposed Strength rollThe character attempting to grapple with a target must make a Moderate martial arts roll to hold their opponent.  For every round the target is held the character must make an opposed Strength roll.  If the target beats their Strength roll they break free of the hold
Instant KnockdownThe character knows how to maximize impact, knocking the target to the floorModerateIf the character's attack is successful and not parried or dodged, and if the skill roll meets the required difficulty number, the target is knocked to the ground.  The fallen character must either wait one round to stand or suffer multiple action penalties.
Instant StandThe character is trained to negate the effects of a fall and return to a standing, combat-ready position.Moderate EasyIf a character is tripped or knocked down, they may return to a standing position without suffering a multiple-action penalty.
Instant StunThe character is trained to strike at critical pressure points that effect breathing or the nervous system, stunning the targetModerateIf the character's attack is successful and not parried or dodged, and if the skill roll meets the required difficulty, the target is stunned for one round
Instant WoundThe character knows how to strike to maximum effect, inflicting sever damage on the targetDifficultIf the character's attack is successful, and is not parried or dodged, and if the skill roll meets the required difficulty number, the target suffers a wound.
Multiple StrikesThe character can deliver multiple blows.ModerateThe character can make a second attack with no without incurring additional multiple-action penalties.  The second attack inflicts 3D STR damage.
Nerve PunchThe character knows the location of nerve clusters, striking in such a way as to render the target's limb numb.Very DifficultIf successful, the character's attack renders an opponents limb (arm or leg, specified prior to making the attempt) unusable for 3D rounds.  Any items held in the effect hand are dropped.  If the character beats the difficulty number by 15 or more, the target is rendered unconscious
Power BlockThe character is trained to parry attacks in a manner which inflicts damage.ModerateA successful parry inflicts STR+1D damage on the target.  This can be used as a reaction skill.
ReversalThe character is trained to turn the tables on an opponent who is attempting to grapple.Opposed Strength or Brawling: Martial Arts roll (which ever is higher) +5.The character can employ this only when they are held.  If they break the opponent's grip, they may in turn hold the target immobile or employ another technique.  This may be used as a reaction skill.
Silent StrikeProvided the character can successfully sneak up on a target, they can instantly kill or render the target unconsciousDifficultThe character must be within arms reach of the target.  The character must declare if this is a killing or stunning attack prior to making the attempt.  A successful skill roll indicates the target is neutralized. A successful skill roll inflicts STR+3D damage on the target as lethal or non-lethal damage (attacker's choice)
Spinning KickThe character is trained to perform a powerful kick.ModerateThe character can add +1D to their damage roll if the skill roll exceeds the difficulty number.  Failure to beat the difficulty number indicates the character is off balance and their opponent may make an additional attack with no multiple action penalties.
Shoulder ThrowThe character can throw a targetModerate EasyA successful skill check indicates that the target is hurled to the ground, provided the attack is not parried or dodged, suffering 3D STR damage.
Weapon-BlockThe character is trained to parry melee attacks, even when they do not possess a melee weapon.Opposed Martial Arts versus Melee Combat roll +10If the character makes the required difficulty roll, they successfully block a melee attack
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: Trax on July 28, 2015, 12:31:03 PM
The elbow smash and spinning kick both do STR + 1D damage but the elbow smash difficulty is very easy and the spinning kick is moderate.  Should either the difficulty be adjusted on one of them, or the damage on the spinning kick increased?
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: GM Craig on July 28, 2015, 01:10:51 PM
Good point, plus risks from failure. How about STR+2d.
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: Trax on July 28, 2015, 01:26:13 PM
That would work, but then it puts the damage for spinning kick on par with flying kick, which has a higher difficulty, plus a move requirement so it'll automatically suffer from a MAP.  These rules were really not thought out well as far as balance goes...

Options I can think of are to drop the damage on elbow smash, which essentially no longer makes it a special move/technique, up the damage on flying kick, or add that a successful hit from flying kick knocks the target down as well.
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: GM Craig on July 28, 2015, 02:05:28 PM
I'll bump the damage from, flying kick to STR +3D.
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: Trax on July 29, 2015, 08:08:47 AM
Noticed there's a similarity between what you proposed in the first post of this thread and the spinning kick entry from the book;

RoundhouseThe character is trained to deliver a spinning kick to the head.Moderate  A successful skill roll indicates that the character delivers a spinning kick to the head of an opponent. In addition to the +1D to damage, the opponent is considered "Stunned" for the remainder of the round.
Spinning KickThe character is trained to perform a powerful kick.Moderate  The character can add +1D +2D to their damage roll if the skill roll exceeds the difficulty number.  Failure to beat the difficulty number indicates the character is off balance and their opponent may make an additional attack with no multiple action penalties.

But your original entry doesn't include the consequences for failure and yours stuns.  Do we want to include 2 versions, one with the lesser damage and no failure consequences?  Kind of like one is a little more reckless but more powerful?

SMF needs to be able to add borders around table cells...
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: GM Craig on July 29, 2015, 10:40:14 AM
I pulled anything that was duplicated, so Roundhouse was yanked from the final table.

Originally, i had plans for different styles, where one style would give the Roundhouse, and another the kick. That was scrapped when we scrapped styles and made the moves independently obtained.

And I concur for borders around cells. :)
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: Trax on July 29, 2015, 11:14:29 AM
Would the roll for Multiple Strikes count as an action?  I would lean towards yes, otherwise it becomes pretty powerful.
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: GM Craig on July 29, 2015, 11:22:56 AM
Yes, any of the rolls above counts as an action unless specified otherwise.
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: Trax on July 29, 2015, 12:24:03 PM
I think I'm almost done.

Should the difficulties for Elbow Smash and Headbutt be reversed, or maybe Elbow Smash upped from Very Easy to Easy?  I kind of think none of these moves should be considered very easy, they are supposed to be advanced moves.
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: GM Craig on July 29, 2015, 12:26:00 PM
I wanted something accessible for characters first starting out. That's why I made Elbow Smash DC 5.

Headbutt is intended to be used while bound or otherwise held, hence the higher DC.
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: Trax on July 29, 2015, 12:33:14 PM
Assuming a base attribute of 2D+2, anything very easy will be successful unless 2 1's are rolled.

That's if I'm reading this right and each power is used at your Martial Arts skill dice and they don't each have their own set of die values.
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: GM Craig on July 29, 2015, 12:54:16 PM
All the moves on the list will use the new Advanced Martial Arts skill (I'm not sure about the name, but it needs to be different from the Martial Arts specialization under Brawling). It is not tied to any attribute, costs 10 CP for your first 1D, and increases independently of any other skill or attribute, just like Force Skills.

All the Advanced Martial Arts skills should either do bonus damage or provide a bonus effect over a standard brawling (or Brawling:Martial Arts) roll.

I see an issue about defending against these moves. These are advanced moves, so I'm tempted to say you must defend against these moves using the Advance Martial Arts dice (with appropriate MAPs). If you're not an advanced martial artist, there's no defending against these specials and you have to rely on the attacker failing the roll.

However, that seems a little too powerful to me.

What do you guys think?

An alternative is to use an Advanced Martial Arts roll as the opportunity to throw a special attack using your Brawling:Martial Arts skill. So, you want to elbow smash, you roll your Advanced Martial Arts dice. If you're successful, you can then make a Brawling:Martial Arts attack, but apply the bonus damage to the attack if successful. Defending against that attack would follow the typical rules for attack and defence.

I'm not sure how to handle it. What do you think?
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: Trax on July 29, 2015, 01:20:01 PM
I don't like the idea of not being able to defend.  NPCs and characters can now be built (and maximized) with these rules in mind, for those of us who've been operating without them all this time, it puts us at a major disadvantage.

I like the alternative you've proposed.

Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: Niil Spaar on July 29, 2015, 02:04:13 PM
Works for me, too.  And just remember, there's always the Indiana Jones solution to a Bruce Lee character coming after you.   ;D
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: Nightshade on July 29, 2015, 04:10:18 PM
Maybe allow defense for characters without the advanced skill but at a penalty to show the disparity in abilities?
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: Niil Spaar on July 29, 2015, 05:57:51 PM
Maybe allow defense for characters without the advanced skill but at a penalty to show the disparity in abilities?

Yup, that works for me.  There should always be some sort of chance for someone without the advanced skill to"luck out".
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: Trax on July 30, 2015, 08:01:25 AM
Maybe allow defense for characters without the advanced skill but at a penalty to show the disparity in abilities?

Again, not really a fan because it hurts current PCs the most.  At best I could possibly see a penalty applied to someone who doesn't have any brawling skills, that would mean they're not trained in hand to hand combat at all but I'm not much of a fan of that either.

As an example, Bill has 7D in Melee Parry: Martial Arts but no advanced skill.  Ted has 6D in Brawling: Martial Arts and 1D in Advanced Martial Arts.  So when Ted rolls an attack it's at 7D and Bill Parries at 7D.  To me, they're both equally skilled, it's just that Ted has decided to focus on a specific discipline while Bill has decided to work on (possibly) multiple different disciplines.  Bill could easily combine and use what he's learned from his different disciplines to offer equal defense to Ted's offense in that one specific discipline.  The only difference being that if Bill fails to block, Ted uses his advanced skill to get something extra out of the hit.

The net result of adding a penalty to the defender isn't much different than lowering all the difficulties.
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: GM Craig on July 30, 2015, 08:19:36 AM
So lets look at the alternate I proposed above. John has 5D Brawling Parry. Ted has 6D in Brawling: Martial Arts and 2D in Advanced Martial Arts.

Ted wants to launch an Elbow Smash. He rolls 2D and gets 7, so he succeeded. Ted then rolls 5D (6D-1D MAP) on his attack, and Bill rolls 7D on the parry. If Ted is successful, his attack will do STR+1D damage.

Another example:

John has 6D in Brawling. Ted has 6D in Brawling Parry: Martial Arts and 5D in Advanced Martial Arts. John attacks, and Ted wants to perform a Power Block as a reaction roll. Ted rolls 16, and succeeds in the move.

John rolls his attack, and Ted will roll his parry. If Ted's parry is successful, Ted will inflict damage on John (as per Power Block). If Ted does not succeed in the parry, John hits normally.

Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: Trax on July 30, 2015, 08:42:51 AM
I'm happy with the proposed alternative.  I think it strikes a good balance between new characters that can be built around the new rules as well as current characters not getting hosed by them when they come up against PCs or NPCs that use them.
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: GM Craig on July 30, 2015, 10:33:55 AM
I've updated the master chart at http://karvis.altarka.org/index.php?topic=120.0

Can everyone have a look? I've added some new abilities, and there are some still listed in red that I'm seeking comment on.
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: Nightshade on July 30, 2015, 11:52:12 AM
It seems now with the new way of gaining the advanced skill that the Teras Kasi moves are a bit off...you can spend less CPs to gain attributes with no chances of failure.  Once you get your skills up, then you could keep them up with no real noticeable penalty in the MAP and buff yourself pretty quickly.  At least that's how I am seeing it, but maybe the numbers in my head aren't right...anyone else chime in on this?
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: Trax on July 30, 2015, 12:03:40 PM
Being very new to how force skills work, I'm thinking they would work the same way in that 'keeping them up' equals an action and thus MAPs apply each round the power is in effect.

Although re-reading Defensive boost, it reads like MAPs would only apply when the power is activated.
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: GM Craig on July 30, 2015, 12:47:59 PM
Being very new to how force skills work, I'm thinking they would work the same way in that 'keeping them up' equals an action and thus MAPs apply each round the power is in effect.

Although re-reading Defensive boost, it reads like MAPs would only apply when the power is activated.

Correct. Keeping a skill up counts as an action.

Defensive boost is a little different in that it gives you a time-limited pool of temporary CP to use for defensive purposes, and only generates a MAP when activated.
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: Trax on July 30, 2015, 01:03:31 PM
Could you stipulate that the character has to be in combat before using it?  I'm just thinking of the following scenario;

A character sneaks up on an enemy, activates Defensive Boost (Let's assume they have 4D total advanced dice) and then attacks the following round.  Unless the round the power is activated is counted against the time limit, they have 2 rounds of 'CPs' to use with no real MAP incurred to activate the power.

Granted, they'd have to have at least 5D in the skill to use it somewhat reliably, and that'd be a lot of skill points used to get it that far so maybe it balances out.
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: Nightshade on July 30, 2015, 01:07:45 PM
It does count as multiple actions, yes, but once your skills get high enough, this penalty is fairly meaningless for the increase in abilities that you are getting.  Taking one less attack per round is no real issue if I can buff that damage of my other attacks by that big a jump.  You can up your advanced skills a lot faster than you can up your attributes and there is no chance of losing all of those CPs like if you tried to up your attributes.  If my strength was 2D it would take me 60 CPs to get it to 3D.  For the same number of CPs I could increase my advanced skill by 2D and get the same boost to my strength if it was at nothing to start with or possibly more if I already had some starting D in the skill.
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: GM Craig on March 17, 2016, 03:32:47 PM
Ok, I'm not happy with how martial arts is playing out. I wanted the styles to be different, and have different flavour, not just having a hodgepodge of moves that appear to cost too much to learn.

So here's what i would like to do...

Make each style of advanced martial arts have it's own die code. The moves available under a style are known to you if you know that style., but your dice in that style determine your success or failure, similar to how the various Lightsabre styles work. Different martial arts styles have difference bonuses and penalties, depending on the style.

You need 5D in Brawling: Martial Arts to learn any style. Once you learn that style, you advance that as an independent skill.

So, you might have 5D+2 in Brawling: Martial Arts, and 3D in Martial Arts: Echani or 6D in Martial Arts: Way of the Shadow.

Thoughts? Comments? Leave well enough alone?

[edited for spelling :P]
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: Nightshade on March 17, 2016, 09:38:07 PM
"Why of the Shadow"...I really want to learn this one  >:D

So would you treat it as another specialization or a straight up skill?

I think that what you propose makes the most sense in being both simple to administer and keep track of, while maintaining variety and flavor.
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: GM Craig on March 18, 2016, 06:21:19 AM
Fixed it. :)

Thanks for the feedback. Anyone else?
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: Collan on March 18, 2016, 08:51:47 AM
I like this version.
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: Trax on March 18, 2016, 09:26:06 AM
I like that.  Makes it much less cost prohibitive and brings it more in line with similar skills.
Title: Re: Proposal: Advanced Martial Arts
Post by: Niil Spaar on March 18, 2016, 11:34:24 AM
So does Niil still keep his Brawling: Martial Arts specialization?  I realize that he'll need to get to 5D first before he can take any styles.