Force Rules

[Jex]

Is that before the flames start or after they go out ...

[Niil Spaar]

Damn, and this whole time I thought I needed a teacher to learn how to use The Force!  Gaaar, time to start saving CP.

[GM Craig]

Until now, you did. I'm allowing it, but only at this time.

I don't think either of you have the CP's for it yet.

[Niil Spaar]

Heh . . . no, not even close.  But I do have 5D in the Lightsaber skill.  I probably need all those die just to hold it out at arm's length without slicing something/someone into jerky . . . 

[GM Craig]

I want to talk about the double-cost for no trainer thing for Jedi skills. I've been thinking that maybe double cost is too easy. The book is pretty clear that without a teacher, there is no training.

However, at the same time, eventually, you'll reach a point where you won't be able to find a teacher. How do you improve then?

I think there needs to be a mechanism for improving your force skills without a teacher, but I worry that I may have set the bar too low.

20 CP and 40 days for training per force skill may be tough enough, but I want to have the conversation.

Keep in mind that Jedi start out fairly weak, and typically plateau once they start putting CP's into force skills as all their CP (typically) go into force skills. However once they hit the sweet spot where they can activate Lightsaber Combat reliably, they immediately surge forward and make up for lost time and thereafter advance in power at double the rate of other characters.

Now, there have been and will continue to be opportunities for Niil and Jex to find teachers on Karvis and beyond, and once that happens, this conversation becomes moot. However, until that happens, it's still relevant, and may become relevant again if, having found a teacher, something happens to remove their access to that teacher (death, imprisonment, etc).

So, is 20CP and 40 days per force skill tough enough? Or should it be more like 30 CP and 60 days? 40 CP and 80 days?

Also remember you can spend extra CP to shave off training time at 1CP = -1 day.

It's fairly certain that Jex and Niil will feel the ruling as it stands is sufficient, but I still want to hear thoughts on the subject.

Going back over my awards, you guys have been earning between 10 and 18 CP per mission.

On a related subject, what do I do with Jex and Niil when they're out for training for an extended period? I can run solo games for Ken (which allows him to surge ahead - don't worry, the Jedi will catch up) and given past experience such things will likely move quickly, but let's look at it anyway. Jex and Niil take up temporary, throwaway characters until their mains complete their training? Or do they just get parked until their training is complete?

[GM Craig]

Heh . . . no, not even close.  But I do have 5D in the Lightsaber skill.  I probably need all those die just to hold it out at arm's length without slicing something/someone into jerky . . . 

You only risk injuring yourself if you roll a 10 or lower. So, at 5D, there's only a 3.24074% chance you'll lop something off.

[GM Craig]

Food for thought:

Teachers. A teacher is essential to a Jedi student's progress. Only after a Jedi has achieved a relatively high level of skill can the character rely on herself ... and even Luke, despite a high level of experience, needed to study under Yoda to become a full-fledged Jedi Knight.

Teachers do more than teach Force skills and powers ? they instruct students in the disciplines needed to maintain balance and adhere to the tenets of the light. A good teacher can help a young student learn patience and responsibility, while a poor teacher may allow a student to slip to the dark side; teachers consumed by the dark side may be able to corrupt even the purest Jedi adepts.

Limiting Powers. As noted, Jedi characters can only use powers they've been taught. Of course, they have to find someone to teach them each power.

This gives you a potent tool. The quest for a new teacher, new powers and lost lore is a great motivator for Jedi adventures.

This rule also allows you to limit the Force powers allowed in your game: if a Jedi can't find a teacher, there is no way to learn the power. Of course, your villains may be able to use these powers, but that's another matter ...

Perhaps you can only self-train once you have achieved a minimum level of skill (3D seems convenient).

[Trax]

I have no problems either way, I'd just like to do what we can to try to avoid the major power shifts.  I don't really want to see Trax reach a point where he's over powered compared to Jex or Niil, and I'd rather not see a point where they over shadow him by a large margin.  Although I understand that as part of the SW universe, Jedi are exceedingly powerful compared to pretty much all others.  But still, would there not be bounty hunters that are not force sensitive powerful enough to go up against Jedi?  If there are that would indicate some way to keep some level of balance.

[Niil Spaar]

Didn't we have rumors of a potential teacher lurking on Karvis?  I seem to recall reading notes that some NPC was Force sensitive (or even a Jedi).

[GM Craig]

Some of you know there is someone on the planet who may be a potential teacher, but so far no one has followed up on it.

Jex, Trax and Dawson have actually met him...

[Trax]

Yeah, Jeremy's friend, or protector when Jex and Trax met him.  Although was there any indication he was a potential Jedi, and if there was, would Trax or Jex have even noticed?

[Jex]

Are those the old notes that are missing ...

A cover up ... just saying ...

[GM Craig]

I have no problems either way, I'd just like to do what we can to try to avoid the major power shifts.  I don't really want to see Trax reach a point where he's over powered compared to Jex or Niil, and I'd rather not see a point where they over shadow him by a large margin.  Although I understand that as part of the SW universe, Jedi are exceedingly powerful compared to pretty much all others.  But still, would there not be bounty hunters that are not force sensitive powerful enough to go up against Jedi?  If there are that would indicate some way to keep some level of balance.

There are, certainly. Jedi are not invincible, and a little preparation can counter many of their abilities. Using a scatter-gun or a flame thrower, for example, makes the lightsaber useless as a defensive weapon.

Young Jedi are very weak, compared to others around them, and stay that way for a long time. But their power improves following a power curve, whereas a non-force-sensitive character improves linearly.

I do not think it will be much of an issue in this game, but one of the biggest complaints about the rules is that Jedi suck (or stand still, advancement-wise) for a long time, and then are over-powered immediately once they hit a certain point. Personally, I think that's just bad GM-ing, so it's not really a concern for me, but it is true that Jedi characters tend to stall once they get force skills, then leap forward once they can activate Lightsaber Combat.

A good GM has many tools to keep things in check - specialized opponents (flamethrowers and scatterguns - I once made a bounty hunter that had powerful energy shields in her bracers and used brawling parry to block lightsaber attacks).

Also, using force powers generates ripples in the Force. A Jedi who is careful, and only uses their powers when necessary generates small ripples. A Jedi who uses their force powers constantly and relies on them generates strong ripples that will attract a lot of attention for those able to sense such things - and those able to sense such things are likely not the kind of people you want to attract the attention of.

Still, I'm a little concerned the 20CP/40 Day thing may have lowered the bar too much. Two adventures, and Niil and Jex have their first force skill.

Though the rules are clear that you cannot learn a power without serendipity or a teacher (or a GM award). Maybe that is where a limit comes in? but if you can't learn a power without a teacher, then why can you learn the skill without on? Maybe I'm on the horns of a dilemma.

[GM Craig]

Yeah, Jeremy's friend, or protector when Jex and Trax met him.  Although was there any indication he was a potential Jedi, and if there was, would Trax or Jex have even noticed?

No, but I do clearly recall that Jex backed down completely the moment the old man opened his robe and put a metal cylinder into his hand.

[Jex]

I do not remember that at all. It has been a while, but could you give us a somewhat more detailed recap?